Rather than argue point by point with the persistent Christians, I posted this set of 20 questions at my blog SeattleJew
1. You accept some version of the Septuagint, the Xtian "bible" as truth. Why? To my knowledge your religion teaches that there is to be no prophet after Jesus and, unlike Moses or Mohamed (or Joseph Smith for that matter), this particular revelation dis not include an claim to leaving behind a physical trace.
So what is your rationale for believing that this set of writings is divine?
2. Again, I think I know the text pretty well, where in your bible does it define the moment of life? Since the bible (and the Quran) seem blissfully unaware of DNA, chromosomes, sperm or eggs ... how do YOU decide when life begins? Lets try ti as a multiple answer questions:
Life begins when:
a. the unique combination of male and female DNA interact to form the first dividing cell. (We call that the first division).
b. the moment when a sperm penetrates the egg.
c. when the potential exists in the form of a unique male and female set of DNA.
d. when the two sets of genome are sufficiently interacting to "recombine" .. that is trade genes from one set of chromosomes to the other.
e. if and only if the two sets of DNA are viable, that is complimentary in ways that wil permit a life to develop.
f when the ball of cells derived from the zygotes has formed the first suggestion of an embryo (called a blastula).
g. When the interacting sets of DNA have begin to express a program for the nervous system.
h. when the ball of cells implants itself into the uterine layer to begin the process of forming a placenta.
i. the heart first appears.
j. when the brain first appears.
k. when the being is potentially viable without a placenta.
2. In your religion, "salvation" requires the intersession of Jesus. Does that mean that Buttho has gone to hell? how about my grandfather, an Orthodox rabbi?
3. Assuming that what you beleive in 2 is true, shouldn't we make the teaching of Islam, Judaism, and Mormonism illegal? Or at least remove children for those environments?
4. Since you associate morality with your religion, can you tell me who were the ten most moral people to live in the last 100 years?
5. Since the Septuagint began as a Roman State Document, would you accept a new version of your bible that had been vetted by independent scholars no influenced by the need to comply with Roman law?
6. The Torah is pretty adamant about worship of any statues,are Catholics pagans?
7. A number of more modern, post Jesus, folk have claimed to speak for God .. Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith, Mohamed, Jim Jones, .. on hwta basis do you reject tHEIR views of the truth?
8. The predictions the Christians claim to prophesize Jesus, say he will be of the House of David. "House" in that era ONLY meant male lineage. Who was Jesus' Dad?
9. Jewish law at the time of the crucifixion required stoning for anyone claiming to be God. Should Jesus have been stoned?
10. Did Jesus ever have intercourse? How do you know this?
11. Judaism allows many wives, where does Jesus say you should only have one?
12. The critical difference between the Nazarenes under James and the Paulines, was the idea that one could become aChristian without following the Jewish law. Where is the textual basis for this claim?
13. Jewish, Islamic and Christian law all have very clear statements that require act of charity of a holy man. Act of charity are defined as giving o your own property to help others. Why are there NO act of charity in the stories of Jesus' life?
14. Jesus never ate pork, do you?
15. Thee religion based in Jesus was used as a weapon of terror for hundreds of years by the Roman State. Later versions of Christianity, used the church to enslave or even exteminate millions of Africans, Jews, and Muslims. The loot from these exercises enriched Christian institutions that still exist. Should they pay reparations?
16. You and I may well share an admiration for certain Christian sects charact4erized by charity, service and love. Given the origins of the Church, when did these wonderful versions of Christianity first appear?
17. Here is a thought problem:
I am trying to create a legal code based on the lives of famous people. Whose lives would serve best as a basis for such a code:
Confucius, the Buddha, Jesus, Hillel, Spinoza, Maimonides, Cesar Chaves. Fidel Castro, GW Bush, MK Gandhi, Saul Alinsky, Jimmy Carter, Al Gore, Sister Theresa, Benzir Bhutto, Lincoln
Choose two and list the ten riles you would derive from ther lives.
18. If God created the Universe, who created God? Did God always exist? How do you know this ... please cite text in your Bible.
19. Who created the Dinosaurs and why are they not mentioned in the Bible?
20. When we discover life around another planet, how much would you bet that this other life will worship s a God who had his son sacrifice for humans in an obscure village in some war wrecked town at the edge of civilization?
Lee … a response to a post by thehim.
From Wiki:
Historically, corporatism or corporativism (Italian: corporativismo) refers to a political or economic system in which power is given to civic assemblies that represent economic, industrial, agrarian, social, cultural, and professional groups. These civic assemblies are known as corporations (not necessarily the business model known as a 'corporation' though such businesses are not excluded from the definition either). Corporations are unelected bodies with an internal hierarchy; their purpose is to exert control over the social and economic life of their respective areas. Thus, for example, a steel corporation would be a cartel composed of all the business leaders in the steel industry, coming together to discuss a common policy on prices and wages. When the political and economic power of a country rests in the hands of such groups, then a corporatist system is in place
From Lee
@36
Piper,
Thank you for the 3rd-Grade-level rundown of this topic. We all appreciate it.
The purpose of government should be to zealously protect and maximize individual liberty and freedom, not subplant them all in the name of some amorphous “collective good” defined by…government.
What you don’t seem to understand is that many, many people understand that you can maximize liberty by developing institutions and systems that benefit all of society. Collectivism (either through corporations or through government institutions) can both lead to greater liberty. Trying to inhibit the creation of one or the other is the path to totalitarianism. When the corporate form of collectivism is demonized, you get Communism. When the government form of collectivism is demonized, you get Fascism. By misunderstanding the reality that corporations are a form of collectivism, you have been unwittingly supporting a political party that has been inching towards Fascism for the past few decades.
I think the exchange over at HA is missing a very important and threatening idea. Corporatism, the esseence of fascism, is a very real threat to liberal democracy. I would even bet that many Americans, liberal or conservative, would vote for the interests of their corporate ties above the interests of the nation.
First, it is importnta to understand that the modern usage of fascism to refer to the Nazi's is historically incorrect. Mussolini invented the concept of fascism. Hitler was anything BUT a fascist. Mussolini’s big idea was that the interests of large corporations and the government were congruent. He brought large corporations into the government fold. To achieve this model there had to be limits on freedom. While it is true that Mussolini glorified the Roman State, that was more a reflection of concurrent ideas of nationalism than a governing principle. indeed, under il Duce, Jews inter alia prospered. Some of what looks today like Italian racism , was simply the usual Eurocentric colonialist mentality.
Not only was there no connection to racism or supremacism, at this stage of Mussolini’s system and il Duce himself were widely feted by liberals (FDR and Gandhi esp) as a potential answer to communism.
If I look around the globe today, it seems to me that Mussolini is VERY successful. Contrary to Fukayama, Democracy as a model for state reform may not be the ultimate end of history. The success stories of the moment include China, Russia, Vietnam, Venezuela, Sweden, England, Cuba, …. While these states call themselves by different names, they are all in fact very similar to Mussolini’s Italy.
Let me suggest a different term, “corporatism.” Sounds better, no?
I define corporatism as government where corporate governance remains in “private hands” but the government itself is controlled by a cadre of folks from the same corporate leadership. In a corporate state, the state works to promote the needs of the corporations. Clinton’s concept of state “investments” is as corporatist as Putin’s engineering of “private” takeover for Yukoil.
The most dramatic examples in our current world are pretty obvious … Lenovo is owned and controlled by the Chinese Army, Putin has just, reportedly, hidden 40 BILLION he will still control after leaving the Presidency. Cuba makes national POLITICAL decisions that are int he interest of Cuba’s Communist Party which is also the management6 of Cuba’s industries. Back to the US, the push for national health care is to relieve the corporations of the burden of health care as they compete world wide.
I will not dwell on the danger of corporatism controlling the US as well. That seems obvious to me. Instead, let me point out some of the outcomes, based on traditions economics, of a corporate society.
Corporations’ own self interest which may or may not include the interest of the nation. Microsoft is a clear (and scary) example. The company exists for only one reason .. to make money for its stockholders and it does that by monopolistic efforts at controlling the internet.
Suppose Steve Balmer concluded that MS would be more functional if its headquarters were in Beijing? Under the rules of capitalism, MS SHOULD move! Of course, under the cocprate model, the same is true in reverse. Just as Boeing moves its management to Chicago to escape Union oversight in its home town, one can imagine Lukoil moving its headquarters to Basel where controls of capital are more secure than in Moscow.
The motto of a corporatist society is:
The fittest must survive.
As in Ec 101, the corporatist tells u8s that any other model hurts the people by being inefficient. The only difference is that in a corporatist state, the fitness of the corporation is more important than the fitness of the nations.
Let me point out that corporatism is utterly antagonistic to Hitlerism. There is no racism, nor nationalism in a corporatist state. The Corporate state exists for the benefit of the corporation(s). The Hitler state existed for the benefit of the Nazi racist ideals.
And Then There Was Edwards .......Friday morning at a forum for undecided voters in Independence, Iowa, Edwards repeated his implicit criticism of Obama, saying any candidate who thinks he or she can invite corporate America to the table and achieve real results for Americans "is living in never-never land."
So he believes Barack Obama lives in never-never land?
"If he believes that, yes," Edwards said. "It's a little hard for me to tell sometimes based on the way he talks about this. I've heard him say he would give stakeholders a seat at the table. I assume he's talking about oil companies, drug companies and insurance companies."
Asked during the interview if he thought Obama or Clinton would be better at bringing about change were he not in the race, Edwards indicated his preference was Obama.
"One of them believes change is necessary and the system doesn't work, and the other defends the system," he said.
But Edwards had plenty critical to say about Obama as well, assailing comments made Friday by Obama's senior adviser David Axelrod that seemed to link Clinton's October 2002 vote to authorize the war in Iraq -- a vote Edwards cast as well -- with Bhutto's assassination. "She was a strong supporter of the war in Iraq, which I submit is one of the reasons we were diverted from Afghanistan, Pakistan and al Qaeda, who may still have been players in this event," Axelrod said.