Rather than argue point by point with the persistent Christians, I posted this set of 20 questions at my blog SeattleJew1. You accept some version of the Septuagint, the Xtian "bible" as truth. Why? To my knowledge your religion teaches that there is to be no prophet after Jesus and, unlike Moses or Mohamed (or Joseph Smith for that matter), this particular revelation dis not include an claim to leaving behind a physical trace.
So what is your rationale for believing that this set of writings is divine?
2. Again, I think I know the text pretty well, where in your bible does it define the moment of life? Since the bible (and the Quran) seem blissfully unaware of DNA, chromosomes, sperm or eggs ... how do YOU decide when life begins? Lets try ti as a multiple answer questions:
Life begins when:
a. the unique combination of male and female DNA interact to form the first dividing cell. (We call that the first division).
b. the moment when a sperm penetrates the egg.
c. when the potential exists in the form of a unique male and female set of DNA.
d. when the two sets of genome are sufficiently interacting to "recombine" .. that is trade genes from one set of chromosomes to the other.
e. if and only if the two sets of DNA are viable, that is complimentary in ways that wil permit a life to develop.
f when the ball of cells derived from the zygotes has formed the first suggestion of an embryo (called a blastula).
g. When the interacting sets of DNA have begin to express a program for the nervous system.
h. when the ball of cells implants itself into the uterine layer to begin the process of forming a placenta.
i. the heart first appears.
j. when the brain first appears.
k. when the being is potentially viable without a placenta.
2. In your religion, "salvation" requires the intersession of Jesus. Does that mean that Buttho has gone to hell? how about my grandfather, an Orthodox rabbi?
3. Assuming that what you beleive in 2 is true, shouldn't we make the teaching of Islam, Judaism, and Mormonism illegal? Or at least remove children for those environments?
4. Since you associate morality with your religion, can you tell me who were the ten most moral people to live in the last 100 years?
5. Since the Septuagint began as a Roman State Document, would you accept a new version of your bible that had been vetted by independent scholars no influenced by the need to comply with Roman law?
6. The Torah is pretty adamant about worship of any statues,are Catholics pagans?
7. A number of more modern, post Jesus, folk have claimed to speak for God .. Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith, Mohamed, Jim Jones, .. on hwta basis do you reject tHEIR views of the truth?
8. The predictions the Christians claim to prophesize Jesus, say he will be of the House of David. "House" in that era ONLY meant male lineage. Who was Jesus' Dad?
9. Jewish law at the time of the crucifixion required stoning for anyone claiming to be God. Should Jesus have been stoned?
10. Did Jesus ever have intercourse? How do you know this?
11. Judaism allows many wives, where does Jesus say you should only have one?
12. The critical difference between the Nazarenes under James and the Paulines, was the idea that one could become aChristian without following the Jewish law. Where is the textual basis for this claim?
13. Jewish, Islamic and Christian law all have very clear statements that require act of charity of a holy man. Act of charity are defined as giving o your own property to help others. Why are there NO act of charity in the stories of Jesus' life?
14. Jesus never ate pork, do you?
15. Thee religion based in Jesus was used as a weapon of terror for hundreds of years by the Roman State. Later versions of Christianity, used the church to enslave or even exteminate millions of Africans, Jews, and Muslims. The loot from these exercises enriched Christian institutions that still exist. Should they pay reparations?
16. You and I may well share an admiration for certain Christian sects charact4erized by charity, service and love. Given the origins of the Church, when did these wonderful versions of Christianity first appear?
17. Here is a thought problem:
I am trying to create a legal code based on the lives of famous people. Whose lives would serve best as a basis for such a code:
Confucius, the Buddha, Jesus, Hillel, Spinoza, Maimonides, Cesar Chaves. Fidel Castro, GW Bush, MK Gandhi, Saul Alinsky, Jimmy Carter, Al Gore, Sister Theresa, Benzir Bhutto, Lincoln
Choose two and list the ten riles you would derive from ther lives.
18. If God created the Universe, who created God? Did God always exist? How do you know this ... please cite text in your Bible.
19. Who created the Dinosaurs and why are they not mentioned in the Bible?
20. When we discover life around another planet, how much would you bet that this other life will worship s a God who had his son sacrifice for humans in an obscure village in some war wrecked town at the edge of civilization?
4 comments:
Piper,
Tx for replying. Though I do not think starting out with a term like “side-show excusrsion” is very conducive to discussion. I will cross post the threads at SJ. Because I ‘spect it will bore most here.
Let me begin by saying I have no issue with blind faith, as long as that is stated clearly and one is willing to follow the consequences of such a choice. Problem is that rthere is some pretty bad history associated with blind faith. Nazis used this as an excuse for following their orders. I knew Stalinists who had the same devotion to their Leader you do to yours. Again fine ,, as long as the reasoning is consistent and the outcome is a way of life that, unlike Stalinism or .. sad to say .. much of Christianity, does not harm others. FWIW, Cesar Chavez had a pure faith. Sister Theresa, OTOH, did not.
So that is how I take your postscript comments: “I’m content in my faith, including that part of it that leads me to believe that life begins at conception and that abortion kills children. Believe as you like since that’s your right. What I will say is that there will come a day when we’ll both be held accountable for what we believe. I’m confident where I’m going at that point…are you?”
Bottom line, you are saying you believe what you have been told, without any desire or interest in evidence that God or Jesus actually said, Fine by me. As for what that makes me confidant of vs, you, I am confidant that I try as hard as I can to lead a good life. Are you?
Maybe then you would be better off in thes ehtreads just admitting you have an arbitrary religion? But even then many of tyhese questions were based on YOUR BIBLE, asking you where YOUR BIBKE, for example, claims a zyg\ote has a soul. If your beliefs are NITbased on your own Bible, where do they come from???
OK Lets see watcha came up with:
A. Where does the Christian Bible get ITS authority? Sorry my friend but you never answered. Both the Quran and the Torah contains statements that the Deity itself has endorsed the text as the literal words are the words of God. None of your citations do more than say that some folks long after your Deity is said to have died,m decided to write a bible. The same applies for the parts of the “Old Testament” that YOU not the Jews or Muslims, accept as the word of God. Rather they are much like Pious IX conferring infallibility on himself.
Your comment. could as easily be made by Jim Jones, a Mormon or a Scientologist.
B. When Life begins. With all due respect, NONE of cour citations refer to zygosis. So, if th9is is the bestg you can do, then YOUR bible has nothing to say other than that life bgins before birth. Frankly, I do not know of many people who do not accept that idea. Certainlky nothing here says that an eight cell blastula is “alive.”
C, Salvation: What does this have to do with anything I asked you? Frankly, I have no reason to WANT salvation. I would rather be the best person I can in this life and, if there is a Deity, hope that its is a good judge of character.
I did pose a thought problem about another planet, but you did not to want t answer it.
D. Religious Libery. Where did I ask about this? However, based on the unattributed citation, “In providing for such freedom no ecclesiastical group or denomination should be favored by the state more than others.,” I assume you are against prayer in the schools, laws limiting sodomy or abortion, etc?
Methinks your claim that the Baptists are for sepration of Church and State fails the smell test.
E. Did Jesus have sex? Why is this a silly question? Yiu seem to think sex is shameful, did Jesus say this?? Jews and many others consider it an essential part of worship of God. Wouldn’t it be important t know whether Jesus had sex??
You reply “people, probably women, we’ve never heard of…The truly Godly - prayer warriers, servants, embodiments of the fruits of the spirit (see Galations 5:22-23) - labor in the shadows and completely eschew public acclaim.” Later you say it is a stuoid question. Perhaps, but sexual abstinence is .. at least for jews .. against the law. Also, it would be very odd for anyone but an essene to choose an asexual life styule unless the person were gay. If Jeus were gay or ahd chosen not to be with women, don’t you thinl someone in your bible would have mentioned it?
BTW, YOU, not I said outside of marriage. BUT, somehow I doubt you realize that Judaism .. like Islam .. recognizes the sex act itself, carried out according to certain riles, as a marriage contract.
F. I asked, “Since the septaguint began as a Roman State Document, would you accept a new version fo your bible that had been vetted by independent scholars no influenced by the need to comply with Roman law?” You say no! Amazing! So the fact that a pagan, sun worshipping murderous Roman emeperor had to sign off on the Council of Nicae does not matter to you???? Odd. Even odder, you, a proclaimed Baptist, want to accept the word of a bunch of Roman appointed preists over the word of careful scholars as to what Yashka actually said??? Howzit?
Seems to me that you are a bit like my Stalinist friend ,, trusting in what the (Roman) State tell you is true.
G. You say that idols are NOT an Issue. Fine by me., I like statues, The Pieta is awesome! BUT the Old testament is rather explicit on this issue. The Jewish war, just 30 years after jesus, was fought because the Jews did not want staues n the Temple. BTW. The Nazarenes are said to have fought alongside the other Jews.
If you want to live loike Jesus, he presumably eschewed statues, do you? Do you preach to your Cathoic friends that they are in sin?
H. House of David. Do you EVER answer a question? The point is that Jesus by any known law was NOT of the house of David. Thereore he does not fulfill the prophecy YOU claim! If Jesus was not of david, then what does that mean to your claim he was the expected Jewish Messiah?
I. Stoning. Do you EVER answer a question? The JEWS, did not regard Yashka as divine. Yet he blasphemed. So why wasn’t he stoned? You might look up what happened to my namesake, St. Stephen.
J. Monogamy You say that Yashka used Adam and Eve to establish the “principle?” Did he, therefore speak against the Jewish tradition of polygamy?
Is it at all odd to you that monogamy was a Roman, not a Jewish ideal? As for the stuff about Deacons and Elders, etc. please tell me where yashak said any of that.
Since we know nothing of Jesus love life, how many wivces do you think he had?
K. “Freedom in Christ” I think you mean by this the Pauline claim to have the right to over ride Jewish law. Again where does yashka say this??? For that matter, how come during his life, he never predicts Paul?
Beyond that, you have managed to cite some of the most anti-Semitic texts in your Bible. What makes you think we want Paul to define what it means to be a Jew. Again did Jesus someplace say, “You, the Jews, will receive one Saul and he will tewll you how to be Jews?” Not in the editions I have read,
L. Acts of Charity With all due respect to Yashka and to you, I di NOIT ask whether he used magic to feed lots of folks. I asked did he ever do simple act of charity? E.g drop a coin in a beggar’s bowl, give his cloak to cold person, ??
BTW, where did yu get the claim that, “Christ had no property of his ow?” How did he survive for thirty years? Based on the NT, his Dad was a middle class stone worker, a well paid profession, with a large family. .
M. Pork. You ask how do >>I<< know that Yashka did not eat pork??? Are you serious?? Don’t you think someone would have noticed???? This isa like asking if he was circumcised?
Your cite about Peter’s dream , illustrates the point! Was Yashka a worse jew than his buddy? Where does this text, which AGAIN says nothing about what Yashka did, say that Peter ate pork??? BTW, the claim that Peter said, ““You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean.” Makes no sense. Judaism has no such rules that I know of. Indeed there are rules that a good giy is more pure than the best Jew.
O. Repartitions. Once more you avoid an answer. I asked whether the property stolen by the CHURCH ought not to be returned to its owners or there descendents. I have no reason to nor did I blame you for the horrible history.
Do I take it we agree, that the Chrurch should return its stolen property, help rebuild cultures it devastated, etc? Or does Chrsitinaity have some sort of convenient way of laundering loot?
P. “Early Christian Sects.” Again, NOT an answer. I asked whether there is any evidence that the early church followed the onderful principoles of charity and love we associate with .. say the Quakers or toher groups that clim to be f=refinf=ding the original intent of your religion? Don’t you think anything as distinctive as that would have attracted notice by a historian of the time?
Q. “God is infinite” Hmmm. Again, since the concept of time itself as a physical variable is part of quantum mechanics and as far as we can see our universe is neither finite nor eternal, what does this mean? Does your God someplace say he can send information at instantaneous speeds?
As for John … who is this guy?? Is John another Deity? Does Yashka authorize him to dispense truths? Where? AND if the text you cite is correct, where does it say God existed BEFORE his creation???? Have you ever read Acquinas????
Steve,
You've mentioned that you've studied a number of religions, but I'm curious if you know anything about Baha'i, and, if so, what your thoughts are.
Not enough! I did vist a Bahi Shrine and talked with people there in Israel. What I have heard reminds me of the effort in India to combine the best of Islam and Hinduism under Akhbar. Is it reklated?
I also know very little of Sikhism.
Steve,
Baha'i is not syncretic in the sense of selectively combining teachings from other religions, but it is syncretic in the sense that it attempts to reconcile other religious traditions within a single theological framework known as "progressive revelation."
Two Wikipedia articles appear to be rather comprehensive. The general entry on Baha'i is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baha%27i
and the entry in progressive revelation is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation
If you're looking for an introductory book, I've been pointed toward Peter J Smith's Babi and Baha'i Religions. I couldn't find a copy at Amazon, but it can be ordered directly from the publisher at:
http://www.grbooks.com/show_book.php?book_id=14
I, too, know very little of Sikhism, but I hope to find some good information about it along the way.
Post a Comment